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ggarner
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05 10 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tiznutbrnt wrote:
ggarner wrote:

Side note in case you didnt know:
Good saying to remember: If there is slag then drag. Meaning if you are welding with flux core you want to drag the puddle, If you are MIG welding with solid wire then you want to push the puddle

Also note that you need to switch the polarity on your machine when you switch between flux core and solid wire, otherwise your welds will suck and they will look like crap.


I was looking to find the picture describing the push or pull of what you speak but am tired... Does anyone have a picture ??

My machine is only DC right ??
If so how would I change polarity on my machine ??


Here is a general pic of MIG welding


If you were this person and you were doing MIG (solid wire with gas) you would ant to be traveling from the welders right to his left. If you look at how he is holding the gun and the angle he would literally be pushing the weld puddle (pushing the gun towards it) as he moves.

If he were doing flux core you want want to travel from his left to right, essentially dragging the puddle (pulling the gun away from it) of weld with his as he goes.

Yes your machine should be DC only.
You should find something like this inside your machine if you lift the lid where the wire goes


This video may help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9wLS1Ji4w4
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12TH AV SMOKERS
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05 10 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ggarner wrote:
12TH AV SMOKERS wrote:
Flux core wire needs to be used with shielding gas to acheive a good weld. The welding wire and puddle still need shielding while the flux is melted and begins to form it's crust. aka: slag.


This is 100% untrue.

From Lincoln's own website: "The Self-Shielded electrodes are optimal for outdoor procedures since the flux is built into the wire for positive shielding even in windy conditions. An external shielding gas and additional equipment are not needed, so setting up is simpler, faster and easier."

And from Millers website (a little more specific):
Flux Cored Wire Basics

There are two types of flux cored wires: gas shielded and self shielded. Gas shielded flux cored wires require external shielding gas and the slag is easy to remove. The operator may want to consider using gas shielded flux cored wires when welding on thicker metals or in out-of-position applications. Gas shielded flux cored wires have a flux coating that solidifies more quickly than the molten weld material. As a result, it creates a "shelf" to hold the molten pool when welding overhead or vertically up. Self shielding flux cored wire does not require external shielding gas; the weld pool is protected by gas generated when flux from the wire is burned. As a result, self shielding flux cored wire is more portable because it does not require an external gas tank.

The only time you NEED to use shielding gas with a flux core wire is for a dual shield (self shielded flux core) application, which is used with specific wire types eg E71T-1.

As far as I am aware with both flux core and stick applications as the electrode melts some of the flux is vaporized which creates a shielded gas area around the molten puddle so that oxidation and other things can not take place. The flux then solidifies on top of the weld bead to protect the cooling weld from similar things.

The advantages of flux core over solid wire is that with the same wire diameter it will weld thicker material.

The advantages of solid wire welding is that it will weld thinner material much easier, and there is less spatter and no slag so cleanup is quicker and easier.

If you want to run shielding gas with flux core wire that does not require it you are basically just pissing money into the wind for no reason, unless as previously stated the wire you are using is meant for a dual shield application.


As for which is easier to learn.... MIG welding or gas shielded welding with solid wire is easier to learn because all you have to do is learn how to read the puddle. With flux core you have to learn how to differentiate between the actual welding puddle and the molten slag, which takes quite a bit more time to do.

Side note in case you didnt know:
Good saying to remember: If there is slag then drag. Meaning if you are welding with flux core you want to drag the puddle, If you are MIG welding with solid wire then you want to push the puddle

Also note that you need to switch the polarity on your machine when you switch between flux core and solid wire, otherwise your welds will suck and they will look like crap.



Not 100% untrue....based on my experience. But your're right too.

Don't always believe the wire companies claims. We've tested many types of wire with the manufacturers specs for gases and have found they don't always work they way they say they do. We'll switch mixtures till we get the proper results. Many wires just plain suck no matter what gas or no gas.
I've been in the welding / fabrication trade for 26 years. Never used flux core without gas and acheived good results. Not saying it can't be done but I've never witnessed it.
I think for a novice building smokers flux core is overkill. Yes, It's easier to learn hard wire than to learn with flux core.
True, in the right circumstances you can probably get a good weld but I've never seen QUALITY welds produced without gas. But I need to keep in mind we are welding to ASME Code standards on Vacuum tight vessels so we can't afford to not run gas. A microscopic "pin" hole will be found when we pump them down and inspect with Helium Mass Spectrometer that detects helium you spray over the welds.

3/16 is about the thinnest we weld with wire. Anything thinner is TIG. Most welds I see produced and pictures of on this website wouldn't pass any weld tests but hey we're all just building smokers so it's not as important.

Peace
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tiznutbrnt
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05 10 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So am I correct in what I am hearing that changing the wires around is NOT going to matter of how the weld is AND learning with gas is best..

Another question is what gas and is one gas better and cheaper than the other..

I am guessing to be welding about 5 hours a week by the time I get things understood..

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ggarner
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06 10 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12TH AV SMOKERS wrote:


Not 100% untrue....based on my experience. But your're right too.

Don't always believe the wire companies claims. We've tested many types of wire with the manufacturers specs for gases and have found they don't always work they way they say they do. We'll switch mixtures till we get the proper results. Many wires just plain suck no matter what gas or no gas.
I've been in the welding / fabrication trade for 26 years. Never used flux core without gas and acheived good results. Not saying it can't be done but I've never witnessed it.
I think for a novice building smokers flux core is overkill. Yes, It's easier to learn hard wire than to learn with flux core.
True, in the right circumstances you can probably get a good weld but I've never seen QUALITY welds produced without gas. But I need to keep in mind we are welding to ASME Code standards on Vacuum tight vessels so we can't afford to not run gas. A microscopic "pin" hole will be found when we pump them down and inspect with Helium Mass Spectrometer that detects helium you spray over the welds.

3/16 is about the thinnest we weld with wire. Anything thinner is TIG. Most welds I see produced and pictures of on this website wouldn't pass any weld tests but hey we're all just building smokers so it's not as important.

Peace


Yea, I agree the consumables that people choose has a lot to do with it. I didnt mean to come off as a smart ass or anything, was just speaking from my own personal experience and that of a couple people I know. I have only mig'd with a miller 175, a passport, and a 350P at a friends shop. Ran the 175 and the passport with flux core and no gas and the welds had good penetration and a good profile similar to as if I had used 6013 or 7014 with a similar amount of spatter but significantly less slag, and a softer easier slag to remove with only a wire brush. In my experience flux core welding with these machines was almost identical to running a 6013 stick electrode, nice fluid puddle which was easy to manipulate but with much less slag to worry about. Ran the 350P on pulse with solid wire and gas and the lack of spatter was amazing. Compared to normal mig with straight co2 on the passport and 85/15 on the 175 the was no noticeable spatter and much less heat on the metal while giving a great weld profile and penetration.

Here is a pic of a piece my friend did on 6" c-channel frames welded with .045 E71T-11, either Lincoln NR211MP or Hobart Fabshield 21B, forget which, with XMT and Suitcase feeder, vertical-up position for the webs, flat and overhead for the legs



As for OP's questions:

I asked my friend who is a welder by trade for 15 years and he says for wire generally stay away from Radnor (Airgas brand) and other off brands. He likes Hobart and McKay brand wires.

But I am confused when you say "changing the wires around" do you mean changing the wire you are welding with as in welding wire, or changing the wires inside the welder which determine what polarity you are welding with(straight or reversed polarity)?

The gas you choose depends on the machine you have and what you are welding. For welding steel, most mig welders work best with 85/15 or 75/25 argon/co2 mixed gas but will run with straight co2 as well. Welders like the miller passport and some others work great on straight co2 but thats what they were designed to run on.

CO2 is cheapest, then 85/15 argon/co2.
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Jonnyrod
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06 10 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only spent about a year running a mig before I went to the refineries so I am by no means an expert. I remember we ran the 75/25 with .045 and had the wire speed and the heat turned way up. Like any method of welding, fit up is 50% of a good weld. I have ran the flux core with no gas and I just think it sucks but that's just me. If you are using new clean metal run some gas and a solid wire say some .030, it will allow you to run longer beads without pegging the duty cycle so soon. If you are using rusted dirty metal....clean it. Just practice a little first it's not that hard, a monkey can run a mig gun. Smile
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tiznutbrnt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07 10 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ggarner"]
12TH AV SMOKERS wrote:


But I am confused when you say "changing the wires around" do you mean changing the wire you are welding with as in welding wire, or changing the wires inside the welder which determine what polarity you are welding with(straight or reversed polarity)?

The gas you choose depends on the machine you have and what you are welding. For welding steel, most mig welders work best with 85/15 or 75/25 argon/co2 mixed gas but will run with straight co2 as well. Welders like the miller passport and some others work great on straight co2 but thats what they were designed to run on.

CO2 is cheapest, then 85/15 argon/co2.


Considering my machine am I correct in thinking it will not, NOT make a difference changing the wires in the machine because it is a DC unit..

Also I have the hobart wire FLUX and should I run gas also ??

If so what gas and or mix considering flux and setting of gauge..

PLEASE PLEASE this is for all that have a problem with understanding what I am trying to say but am haveing MAJOR health issues going on..

Thanks for any understanding and help I am getting..
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ggarner
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07 10 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering my machine am I correct in thinking it will not, NOT make a difference changing the wires in the machine because it is a DC unit..

No, it will absolutely make a difference.

For use of flux core wire you want the work clamp connected to the + terminal and the gun connected to the - terminal

For mig welding (solid wire with gas) you want the work clamp connected to the - terminal and the mig gun connected to the + terminal

Also I have the hobart wire FLUX and should I run gas also ??
Thats really up to you. You can run it with gas or without. See which gives you the results that you like better.

If so what gas and or mix considering flux and setting of gauge..
This should all be covered in the users manual and on the wire you choose for your welder, I dont know off the top of my head what type of gas it was is designed to be used with so I cant say.

Here is a users manual to what should be a similar welder from Lincoln:
http://content.lincolnelectric.com//pdfs/products/navigator/im/IM890.pdf
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tiznutbrnt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07 10 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ggarner wrote:
Considering my machine am I correct in thinking it will not, NOT make a difference changing the wires in the machine because it is a DC unit..

No, it will absolutely make a difference.

For use of flux core wire you want the work clamp connected to the + terminal and the gun connected to the - terminal

For mig welding (solid wire with gas) you want the work clamp connected to the - terminal and the mig gun connected to the + terminal

Also I have the hobart wire FLUX and should I run gas also ??
Thats really up to you. You can run it with gas or without. See which gives you the results that you like better.

If so what gas and or mix considering flux and setting of gauge..
This should all be covered in the users manual and on the wire you choose for your welder, I dont know off the top of my head what type of gas it was is designed to be used with so I cant say.

Here is a users manual to what should be a similar welder from Lincoln:
http://content.lincolnelectric.com//pdfs/products/navigator/im/IM890.pdf


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daddywoofdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07 10 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a welder but did go to school for it in the 70's.I thought the whole Idea with flux core was so you didn't have to use gas?
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ggarner
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08 10 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never used gas with flux core either, but different strokes for different folks i guess.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08 10 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stick welder off and on for many years and a recent fan of gas shield MIG with a few field fix O/A projects. I can hold my own. Flux core on a 110V with no other gas assist? I would be better off trying to certify JB Weld.
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