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alto shaam vs CVAP

 
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rubbbq
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Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 174
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11 12 5:15 am    Post subject: alto shaam vs CVAP Reply with quote

So, I have 3 alto shaams - one in the raunt, one in the catering/event space, and one in the basement (bought broken at auction, needs a new thermostat). I have heard you guys talk about CVAPs, esp Harry, and you seem to like them better.

One advantage I see, is that most CVAP's look like they're running on 120v, standard plugs. As of now, I have to have access to the main box (and permission of site owner) to hook up my holding cabinet for catering events.

I have the opportunity to buy 2 CVAP's for $500/each, and think I may do it. I'll use them at festivals, on the lakefront this summer, and for catering.

Any comments on CVAPS, why some guys prefer them?

The CVAPS I am looking at are this model (But at $500/each):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-C-Vap-Food-Warming-Holding-Cabinet-Winson-CB53-/190471494005?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c58fc5975
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Harry Nutczak
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Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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Location: The Northwoods

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11 12 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They look nice, but I would call Winston and get some info on that model to make sure it will fit your needs. I do not know if that is just a holding cabinet, cook/hold or therm/hold.
There website shows parts are available, expect to replace the door gasket and hinges, I see a hinge retro fit kit, so the hinges must have had issues or something

As per a Shaam compared to a CVAP, there really is no comparison. The winston allows you to set specific moisture levels via the controls, it allows you to add moisture, Whereas a shaam you cannot add moisture, you can only control moisture loss by opening or closing vents on the door.

At the Chicago NRA show, they were serving french fries which were held for hours in a CVAP, and they were still good. They say 4 hours on fried chicken and fries with little loss in quality, when I get my pressure fryers, I plan on holding chicken in one of my CVAP's to meet the rush's.

On a side note, anyone doing the NRA show this year? I hope to get there on the Mon-Tue dates. Meet & Eat down there or something?
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rubbbq
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11 12 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

down there??? Well, we could go to Willie's (Honky Tonk BBQ), but he's not open for lunch. I'd love to host a lunch in our new pit room....
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qfanatic01
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11 12 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might go Monday this year
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frankncali
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Joined: 17 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16 12 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Nutczak wrote:
They look nice, but I would call Winston and get some info on that model to make sure it will fit your needs. I do not know if that is just a holding cabinet, cook/hold or therm/hold.
There website shows parts are available, expect to replace the door gasket and hinges, I see a hinge retro fit kit, so the hinges must have had issues or something

As per a Shaam compared to a CVAP, there really is no comparison. The winston allows you to set specific moisture levels via the controls, it allows you to add moisture, Whereas a shaam you cannot add moisture, you can only control moisture loss by opening or closing vents on the door.

At the Chicago NRA show, they were serving french fries which were held for hours in a CVAP, and they were still good. They say 4 hours on fried chicken and fries with little loss in quality, when I get my pressure fryers, I plan on holding chicken in one of my CVAP's to meet the rush's.

On a side note, anyone doing the NRA show this year? I hope to get there on the Mon-Tue dates. Meet & Eat down there or something?


Interesting
I would have figured the moisture levels of chicken and fries to be at two different levels.
4 hours of hold time on fries would be very interesting to see.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16 12 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, you need different temps/moisture levels for crisp fried foods and other items, you cannot hold fried foods and moist meats in the same cabinet and expect them both to be perfect.

The point being is that you can set moisture levels to fit specific holding needs. On most other cabinets, they only have one control, and that is for heat. So it may work great for one thing, but not for others.

I got a pair of CVAP's at a sweet price this last summer, and it has helped me run my operation much more efficiently and allows me to empty my pit sooner to get more product cooking so I can handle the monstrous volumes that we see in the summer months.


A few times last summer, I was wishing I didn't sell my 2nd Oyler 700 because I was running out of cooking room, the 1,300# capacity left me short on more than just a few days.

KFC uses CVAP's exclusively in all their stores, I also believe they are using the Winston fryers too. Many school districts throughout the country also specify CVAP's for holding.

Until using one myself, I didn't believe their capabilities either.
Now I just need a few more rockstars, and a few less goobers around and life would be even better
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frankncali
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16 12 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Nutczak wrote:
yes, you need different temps/moisture levels for crisp fried foods and other items, you cannot hold fried foods and moist meats in the same cabinet and expect them both to be perfect.

The point being is that you can set moisture levels to fit specific holding needs. On most other cabinets, they only have one control, and that is for heat. So it may work great for one thing, but not for others.

I got a pair of CVAP's at a sweet price this last summer, and it has helped me run my operation much more efficiently and allows me to empty my pit sooner to get more product cooking so I can handle the monstrous volumes that we see in the summer months.


A few times last summer, I was wishing I didn't sell my 2nd Oyler 700 because I was running out of cooking room, the 1,300# capacity left me short on more than just a few days.

KFC uses CVAP's exclusively in all their stores, I also believe they are using the Winston fryers too. Many school districts throughout the country also specify CVAP's for holding.

Until using one myself, I didn't believe their capabilities either.
Now I just need a few more rockstars, and a few less goobers around and life would be even better


I managed a chicken place for a few years and we had holding bins but none with humidty control.
My Goobers used to load those suckers up if I wasnt around trying to get out of working.
First day I was there I saw a days worth of sides and about a half days worth of chicken made and put in before 1030am. I was shocked.
I am going to keep on the lookout for a good holding bin here(socal). We have alot of restaurants closing so one should pop up.
Thanks for all of your info Harry
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Harry Nutczak
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Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16 12 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see a bunch of great priced used stuff in CA on the auction sites, I unwillingly pass on tons of stuff by you due to the sellers unwillingness to ship, or even allow me to handle all freight arrangements.

I got my cvap's out of Louisiana , and my slicer out of Philly, both eBay and both smoking deals from used equipment dealers, so keep your eyes open, and shop around.
Good luck h
Getting your needed equipment. I collected for years before opening, good deals that I knew I would need one day, probably a good thing we own a storage business too, otherwise I would have looked like a hoarder!
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rmg08057



Joined: 03 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10 16 6:05 am    Post subject: Resurrection of thread Reply with quote

Hi there

This is one of the few (perhaps only) discussion of real-time differences between the A-S and the CVap units, at least with BBQ, that I can find on the Net. I am tagging onto the end as it is based on solid, real-world experience.

I am researching hot-holding options for same-day, fresh BBQ service. Basically, open for breakfast and long lunch (8am-3pm) on weekends (well, initially). Cooking strategy is:
1. Cook brisket & butts overnight, take off at say 6am, cool to 180F internal, then hot hold at about 145F.
2. Ribs and smoked chicken in multiple (ribs 2, chicken 3) smaller batches during the day.
3. Not BBQ, but fried chicken using the twice-fried method. There is no hot holding needed for this product as the second fry will be on demand.
4. Sides - not fully determined yet, but as a hot side, there will certainly be M&C - haven't yet determined the best cook/hold process there.

I therefore need to hold whole briskets & whole butts (will slice briskets by order & pull butts, by full butt, as run out) for up to 9 hours. I will also need to hold ribs (rack) and chicken (pieces), but hopefully for shorter periods of time, say max of 4-5 hours.

I also need a strategy for handling any leftovers.
a. Brisket/butts - chill/freeze overnight, will be used chopped for breakfast/sandwiches the next day.
b. Ribs/chicken - chill/freeze overnight, use in breakfasts/sandwiches next day.
NOTE: Will be trying for "available until sold-out" but uncertain if that will be accepted in a B&M, it is something the market isn't used to in our neck of the woods. OK for food trucks and all, but restaurants ...

Given this, can you guys comment:
A. On hot holding using Alto-Shaam vs CVap? My analysis is that the A-S is good if the holding cabinet has a mix of product in it. The CVap is good if the holding cabinet has products that need the same humidity setting.
B. I would also be interested in the wrapping strategy inside the hot holding units.
C. Can you serve from the hot-holding units? Say I want a half of ribs, can I open the hot holding unit, pull out one rack of ribs, close door, cut ribs, open door, put unused portion back. Does it have cycle-times and recovery modes to support that? If not, I suppose I'll have to use bain-marie/chaffer dish units to hold partials.

Thanks for your time, any advice will be very helpful.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10 16 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you use a CVAP, there is no need to wrap and chill if you have product left from the day, you can hold butts/brisket for 24-48 hours without massive quality loss.
Ribs, not so much.
Wrapping while holding?> Not needed.

I will hold butts in a Shaam for 12-18 hours, but not my brisket.
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rmg08057



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12 16 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Nutczak wrote:
when you use a CVAP, there is no need to wrap and chill if you have product left from the day, you can hold butts/brisket for 24-48 hours without massive quality loss.
Ribs, not so much.
Wrapping while holding?> Not needed.

I will hold butts in a Shaam for 12-18 hours, but not my brisket.


Thanks Harry

On my last question ... serving from the CVAP ... is that reasonable, or does the constant opening not allow enough recovery time?

TIA.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17 16 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmg08057 wrote:
Harry Nutczak wrote:
when you use a CVAP, there is no need to wrap and chill if you have product left from the day, you can hold butts/brisket for 24-48 hours without massive quality loss.
Ribs, not so much.
Wrapping while holding?> Not needed.

I will hold butts in a Shaam for 12-18 hours, but not my brisket.


Thanks Harry

On my last question ... serving from the CVAP ... is that reasonable, or does the constant opening not allow enough recovery time?

TIA.


I've never had a problem with mine holding temps, but to be fair, in summertime, when I piece of meat comes out, it doesn't ever get a chance to go back in the CVAP, we go through product here very rapidly most of the time
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RodinBangkok
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17 16 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your going to be going to that one largecabinet for every order then I'd think about placing a small drawer unit CVAP on your line, very quick recovery and easy to get product in and out frequently.
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rmg08057



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20 16 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Harry and Rod

Where I am (New Zealand) we have to buy A-S/CVAP's new and they are terribly expensive with freight and exchange rate, so the thought of two sends a shiver down my spine. I am thinking CVAP plus steam table. My problem with the steam table (bain marie) is I have rarely had decent BBQ from such a tool, it seems to dry the goods out.
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