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Ranucci's Big Butt
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Joined: 25 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry, until you compete you won't know what it's like to spend all that time and money only to have the judge taste one piece of pork and score you on that one small bite. You should try it some time, may be educating for you.

I do both comps and catering so I get to see both sides of it unlike some who have posted on this subject. I have used MSG in comps but not when I cater as there is no reason to. People aren't going to take one small bite and go on to the next.
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DawgPhan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allsmokenofire wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:
Look we finished DAL in winchester...it hurt...it hurt a lot...I felt like packing it up and heading home and forgetting about comp bbq...


...ouch! Embarassed


Oh you dont have to tell me...Of course we did turn in under cooked chicken which got us a nice score of 100 in chicken. I think that I finished 24 or so in pork, my ribs were something else...it was like 1/2 the judges got something eles...3 scores of 30 points and 3 scores of 20 points...and the brisket was way over cooked...I think that hanging out in the cooler really cooked the mess outta it...

But yeah tough weekend...maybe worse by some family things and my wife not being able to make it...
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sseige
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smokin! BBQ is the third rail! religion, politics, and BBQ! Want to crank up the heat talk about BBQ. No matter if its about wet-dry, wood-pellet-gas, competition-selling, offsett-vert, inject-not inject, pure traditionalist or everyone else it sure is easy to get a fire going Twisted Evil
The hardest thing to do is put yourself in the other persons cooker(for me it is) for instance competitions y'all will get mad at me but I have to look at it as a hobby, then I can begin to understand your passion and positions. Then vou have the pure caterers like Mike, Marv, and Gordon they cook for a living so you have to look at what they do totally different. Is one Q better cause of points to the third 0? or is many peoples vote by the all mighty dollar the deciding factor? Then it gets tricky some do both and one fuels the other do they hold to what they normally serve or do the pander to the judges taste?and then do they hold up the blue ribbon when they promote their business after they change their product to win over the judges? Thats my log for the fire or should I say gas for the fire Twisted Evil
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allsmokenofire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at it this way Dawg, it's bound to happen to all comp teams sooner or later...you've just got yours out of the way already. Wink
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DawgPhan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allsmokenofire wrote:
Look at it this way Dawg, it's bound to happen to all comp teams sooner or later...you've just got yours out of the way already. Wink


yeah that is what everyone one wanted to tell me after the awards...

learned some lessons for sure and one is that these things aint worth doing without the wife there....

the chicken thing kills me and I hate to think that we probably hurt the scores of everyone else at the table unless we were the last entry...
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mrcustomsteel
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawg, you hit the most interesting and irritating point here. Instead of spending 30 years learning how to smoke a brisket and not dry it out, you can use a product that does it for you. Kinda' irritates us guys who spent 30 years learning it. If anyone with the money to buy the product can juice it up, what's the real fun in that?

Now that there is so much money in it, the comp circuit could go the way of other "sports". Do you want to see the best wrestler or do you want WWF? Do you want to see the best skilled ballplayers or do you want so see freaks knock it out of the park? Do you want the fastest auto a team can run around the track or do you want NASCAR? Bass tournaments? Now BBQ.

So I'm not going to begrudge the way a guy tries to make some extra money either selling or using this stuff. Just don't expect me to respect your cooking abilities and ask about your techniques and your rig just because you are getting in the money at contests. If folks were saying about me what folks are saying behind the backs of juicers up here I'd just quit competing altogether. I'd rather make real friends out on the circuit than win a few grand.

Feelings are running pretty hard over these products. The sanctioning bodies will have to address them at some point or risk fracturing the pool of competitors into two groups.
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Ranucci's Big Butt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Customsteel, that's a good point. Do you also consider the FEC and clones of these problems at comps? I walked around last weekend at Kings Mtn and saw a good bit of teams using these. Plug it in, set the temp and go to sleep, kind of loses the art of BBQ if you ask me, especially when I have to toss a log in the box every hour.
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put ssiege, and Mr.Customsteel. That was exactly what I was trying to convey! Very Happy
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mrcustomsteel
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex, At least the pellet munchers burn real wood. From what I know of them, they only use electricity to start the fire and then to feed pellets. If at any time during the competition the electric element is used to add heat then I think that should be illegal, just like using propane for the same purpose. But how do you monitor that?

I'd like to see electricity taken completely out of the cooking picture, including thermostat fans. I'm sure you could rig up a pellet muncher to run off a counterweight or wind up system, like an old clock. But hey, guys want to sleep. The rig rules don't bother me as much as the additives.
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sseige
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The selective BBQ purism is kinda funny to me. If you want to do pure traditional BBQ don't you have to dig a pit and do a hole hog? Does tending a fire all night make you a better cook? I admire you guys that can do it because its an art IMO but does it make your Q any better? I've heard the smoked flavored cooked meat argument so many time its not funny and many of you live by "wood only makes the best Q".
If you want to have an even pure traditional BBQ competition give every team a shovel, rack, pile of wood, and a hog and have at it but dont say so and so type cooker cant be used because its not true BBQ LMAO.
If you think your Q is better than the next guys great man if you have the taste,tenderness, color and every thing else down and yours tastes like heaven outstanding man but don't think for a second that your way of getting to that point makes your Q better just cause of the way you cooked it.
Y'all can have your no electric no gas comps but I think you should lay of the pellet guys because its not true BBQ thats just to funny I understand why you would be scared to go against Ole hickory's, Southern Pride's, and Holstein rigs but pellets are a lot closer to wood than briquettes and you don't outlaw them do you? Does fire tending get judge points? Tell me what I'm missing.......................More gas on the fire Twisted Evil
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Big Tom
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQMAN wrote:

Just curious Big Tom- I know you do a lot of comps, and do well. Is it really profitable over-all, or do you just make enough money (or less than enough) to support the hobby?


Wow this thing got hot while I was out doing the domestic home-owner thing.

BBQMAN, for us (my team) the competitions are strictly hobby/bad habit. We would like to be able to make profit from them but that just is not practical for the average event, or part time competitor. If we could swing it through the IRS we would definately be a "non for profit" organization. Wink

On average the MIM/MBA contests offer between $500 - $1000 for a first place in a given category, plus a bonus of another $500 - $1500 for a Grand Champion. We will usually enter at least 2 categories. Our entry fees tend to be around $300 - $500 per event. Meat expenses are another $300+. Add in other expenses for supplies, charcoal, woods, travel, etc; we would need to get a 1st place in a category plus a grand to really break even.

Within our team we are usually out of pocket about $200- $300 per member per event. If we are short handed on a weekend it just costs us that much more to have this fun.

For us the cost of competitions is no different than what others may spend to fish tournaments, race cars, etc. From time to time we get some $$ help from folks that do sponsor us / advertise on our fence. That does help offset the seemingly endless outpouring of cash.

We have some help in Memphis with the cost of our meats a cool $500 off the top of an anticipated $4000 weekend (split between 6 team members), plus other potential sponsors that are showing interest, but not writing any checks at this time.

That is why we will do what the rules will allow to try and win. We don't want to try and cheat or be considered "cheaters" as we have worked hard to earn our reputation as credible threats when we show up at a competition.

Tom
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allsmokenofire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has been good for quite a few chuckles and there have been some great observations in the posts. I respect the points of view that people bring in regarding what they do to compete.

Here's where I stand:
I'm fairly new to BBQ competition and all but 1 contest I've done has been a KCBS sanctioned contest. Last year, which was my 2nd year to compete, we did 21 contests. In those 21 contests, we got calls in 15 of them, and multiple calls in 6 of them. We also won 2 GCs last year.

In those 21 contests, we managed to get beat by every imaginable type of cooker burning every type of legal fuel for KCBS contests, using a multitude of rubs, sauces, enhancers, additives, flavorings, etc. in every single KCBS category along the way. My point is this: There is always somebody doing something better than you at some point and time in some category according to the folks that are judging the contest.

There is no secret to winning all the time because nobody does. Even the KCBS team of the year didn't win every time out( but they managed it about 33% of the time). So the answer isn't pellet cookers, or stickburners, or charcoal, or Fab B, or whatever. If KCBS allowed gassers or electrics, that wouldn't be the answer either. I think the only answer to winning consistently, like the top teams do, is learning to cook great BBQ, in any type of conditions, and be extremely consistent in how the final product turns out. Whatever it takes for you to accomplish that, as long as it conforms to the established rules, is fine by me......really. Cool

Now....before I dismount the soapbox, the only question I have for the Fab users is this: If you could cook a consistently tender, juicy, mouth-watering brisket without Fab B, would you still use it? Wink
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

allsmokenofire wrote:


Now....before I dismount the soapbox, the only question I have for the Fab users is this: If you could cook a consistently tender, juicy, mouth-watering brisket without Fab B, would you still use it? Wink


Good point!
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Ranucci's Big Butt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siege, I'm not saying it's not true bbq, my point is if you let electric controlled temp gauges and augers do the work, why not let me run propane in my fire box to control temp? Everyone freaks out when you mention propane but not electric. I know, electric is not the heat source it's the pellets, which are feed by the auger which is temp controlled and run by electric. I would like to see KCBS just let you cook on whatever you think will turn out good Q.
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sseige
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranucci's Big Butt wrote:
siege, I'm not saying it's not true bbq, my point is if you let electric controlled temp gauges and augers do the work, why not let me run propane in my fire box to control temp? Everyone freaks out when you mention propane but not electric. I know, electric is not the heat source it's the pellets, which are feed by the auger which is temp controlled and run by electric. I would like to see KCBS just let you cook on whatever you think will turn out good Q.
Alex I appreciate your open mind and point of view but I don't think they should let us gassers into your events it would change the nature of the events taking it away from teams that do this for a hobby. IMO it would cause teams to buy more expensive equipment (though I don't think its needed) to keep up with the pack, kinda like racing. Then sponsors would be required by most just to make a few comps. Keep it the way it is. Very Happy And yes technology makes it easier for cooks and lines need to be drawn but not for the sake of your BBQ is "true BBQ" and any other way is not
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DawgPhan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sseige wrote:
Ranucci's Big Butt wrote:
siege, I'm not saying it's not true bbq, my point is if you let electric controlled temp gauges and augers do the work, why not let me run propane in my fire box to control temp? Everyone freaks out when you mention propane but not electric. I know, electric is not the heat source it's the pellets, which are feed by the auger which is temp controlled and run by electric. I would like to see KCBS just let you cook on whatever you think will turn out good Q.
Alex I appreciate your open mind and point of view but I don't think they should let us gassers into your events it would change the nature of the events taking it away from teams that do this for a hobby. IMO it would cause teams to buy more expensive equipment (though I don't think its needed) to keep up with the pack, kinda like racing. Then sponsors would be required by most just to make a few comps. Keep it the way it is. Very Happy And yes technology makes it easier for cooks and lines need to be drawn but not for the sake of your BBQ is "true BBQ" and any other way is not


I dont know that I agree that it would start an arms race if they allowed gassers...now if they included a people's choice part to the contests then certainly larger pits are going to be needed... I can compete with my WSM's but I cant also vend or do people's choice.
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allsmokenofire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25 07 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sseige wrote:
Alex I appreciate your open mind and point of view but I don't think they should let us gassers into your events it would change the nature of the events taking it away from teams that do this for a hobby. IMO it would cause teams to buy more expensive equipment (though I don't think its needed) to keep up with the pack, kinda like racing. Then sponsors would be required by most just to make a few comps. Keep it the way it is. Very Happy And yes technology makes it easier for cooks and lines need to be drawn but not for the sake of your BBQ is "true BBQ" and any other way is not


I'm not flaming, but I don't follow the logic that if they let gas cookers into KCBS comps that it would take away from the teams that do this as a hobby. How would it cause teams to buy more expensive equipment to keep up?

Unlike racing, I don't need a faster smoker, I just have to be able to produce good bbq on what I've got. I agree that technology makes it easier for cooks, however, I don't agree that "easier" is synonomous with "better" when it comes to bbq....but that's just me. Wink
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dabaslab
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26 07 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQ
Its not the smoker - its the cook
Its not the FAB B - its the cook
Its not the wood - its the cook
Its not the pellets - its the cook
Its not the rub - its the cook
Its not the meat - its the cook
Its not the competition - its the cook
Its not the backyard - its the cook
Its not how much money you spend - its the cook

Competions
Its not the cook - its the judges

We act like if someone uses _____________ (fill in the blank) that they will automaticlly win. That is certainly not the case as we all know.

Dab
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26 07 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dabaslab wrote:
BBQ
Its not the smoker - its the cook
Its not the FAB B - its the cook
Its not the wood - its the cook
Its not the pellets - its the cook
Its not the rub - its the cook
Its not the meat - its the cook
Its not the competition - its the cook
Its not the backyard - its the cook
Its not how much money you spend - its the cook

Competions
Its not the cook - its the judges

We act like if someone uses _____________ (fill in the blank) that they will automaticlly win. That is certainly not the case as we all know.

Dab


Nail-Head.

Congrats on the results of your last cook off.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26 07 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dabaslab wrote:
.....

We act like if someone uses _____________ (fill in the blank) that they will automaticlly win. That is certainly not the case as we all know.

Dab


I guess I'm not supposed to post in here because I don't compete Rolling Eyes , but I'm going to anyway. Twisted Evil

The logic of, "if you have to use this stuff, learn how to cook" doesn't set very well with me either. Using that logic you should not use rub, marinate, brine, etc. etc. on anything you cook. That is all adding "stuff" to the meat that is not "naturally" in the meat. When it comes down to it, everything you're putting on your meat is a "chemical", and those chemicals impart a flavor.

If I was to get me some kombu seaweed (where the flavor of glutamate was discovered), boil it up, and inject it in a brisket, whould that be OK? It's a 100% "natural" product, but it's the same dang thing as MSG.....
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