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Undercooking Hamburger
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PitMattster
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 10:50 pm    Post subject: Undercooking Hamburger Reply with quote

This is not intended to trash talk anyone, I'm really just looking for clarity.

Why is it that in the States you guys don't properly cook your burgers??

My understanding regarding beef is that the harmful bacteria that can reside on this type of meat is a surface bacteria, and that as long as you get a good sear onto the meat you have killed off said bacteria making things like a 'blue' steak perfectly fine to eat. However when beef is ground up you distribute the bacteria throughout the meat, making it necessary to cook a burger to well done. Which is how it's always done up here in the Great White North. If you order a burger in a restaurant you are never asked how you want it cooked, unlike ordering a steak.

So with so much care given to pork and poultry, why is caution thrown to the wind with ground beef? I also love how every restaurant that I've ever visited down there has the blanket statement on the menu about how undercooking meat can make you ill, releasing them from any liability.

Again no insult intended, just curious is all, so that's why I'm asking the experts here.
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day_trippr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Undercooking Hamburger Reply with quote

Paradoxically, life's too short to eat overcooked food.

The question surely presumes commercial meat grinders are laden with bacteria, but I don't share that presumption.

Because a medium-rare burger tastes so much better than an over-done one, and the fact that after nearly 60 years of eating medium-rare burgers I'm still mostly vertical Wink I'll continue to cook my burgers to the point they are the most enjoyable.

So, does everyone in Canuckistan eat over-done burgers?

Cheers Wink
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PitMattster
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is well-done assuming over done? If that sort of logic is used than I guess we're all eating overcooked pulled pork and brisket. I'm talking about bringing the internal temp to around 155-160 not making hockey pucks. My burgers are always deliciously juicy, never dried out.

Point on the commercial meat grinder, unless you're doing it yourself, does not all ground round go into a commercial grinder?

Love the Canuckistan though...
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Mr Tony's BBQ
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought bacteria dies at 139 which is why 140 is the new 160...?!! Heck, on New years Eve I ALWAYS have what we call "cannibal sandwiches" - fresh RAW ground sirloin beef on rye with onions and pepper! Medium rare is the norm for any red meat for me - and I've been pulling pork loins at 145 for forever - JUST til juices run clear - turkey I take higher to make it tendererereer, same as pulled pork and brisket - to tenderize, not homogenize!....granted, I have only seen almost 47 years so far.....
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PitMattster
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure about the 139 quite frankly - that's why I'm asking. To the Internet for more research!!

And for the record my steaks are always done rare to medium rare. And I absolutely love sushi/sashimi as long as it's fresh. Especially salmon and yellowfin, droooooool.......
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day_trippr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PitMattster wrote:
Why is well-done assuming over done?


Using my metrics, medium-rare burgers taste best, and as it takes longer to go beyond that point, I term that result "over done".

PitMattster wrote:
If that sort of logic is used than I guess we're all eating overcooked pulled pork and brisket.


No. Your thread clearly regards burgers, not pulled pork, not brisket, not chuckies, etc. (but, for the record, the answers would all be: "195-200F" Wink)

PitMattster wrote:
I'm talking about bringing the internal temp to around 155-160 not making hockey pucks. My burgers are always deliciously juicy, never dried out.


I'm sure, but if I was eating at your restaurant, I'd still request my burger to be done medium-rare.

PitMattster wrote:
Point on the commercial meat grinder, unless you're doing it yourself, does not all ground round go into a commercial grinder?


Yes. And...

PitMattster wrote:
Love the Canuckistan though...


My flyfishing friends north of the USA are quite proud of the distinction Very Happy

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22 11 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PitMattster wrote:
Not sure about the 139 quite frankly - that's why I'm asking. To the Internet for more research!!

And for the record my steaks are always done rare to medium rare. And I absolutely love sushi/sashimi as long as it's fresh. Especially salmon and yellowfin, droooooool.......


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Tony's BBQ wrote:
I thought bacteria dies at 139 which is why 140 is the new 160...?!! Heck, on New years Eve I ALWAYS have what we call "cannibal sandwiches" - fresh RAW ground sirloin beef on rye with onions and pepper! Medium rare is the norm for any red meat for me - and I've been pulling pork loins at 145 for forever - JUST til juices run clear - turkey I take higher to make it tendererereer, same as pulled pork and brisket - to tenderize, not homogenize!....granted, I have only seen almost 47 years so far.....


Aren't cannibal sandwiches like old fashion's and booyah, never see it ouside Wisco?
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Mr Tony's BBQ
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then call me old fashioned!!! I guess I plan on bringing it back if I ever move out of state!

GO PACK!
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PitMattster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Day-Trippr each to his own of course, it's all a matter of personal opinion. And I would gladly serve you a med-rare burger if that's what you want, but please let's not argue semantics. if it's safe to eat a med-rare burger then I would gladly try one, I don't have any hangups on that sort if thing, hence the post. The wife on the other hand will not eat anything slightly resembling pink - she thinks it's blood even though I've explained the science to her. But again each to their own. But a well-done tenderloin?? Sigh.......

Been digging around on the web and I haven't found anything yet to state that food-bourne bacteria dies at 140, just that the 40-140 area is where bacteria will grow.

But again Mr. Tony makes a good point regarding his Cannibal sammys...... Of course his logic would also tell you that it's all just ground veggies Surprised

I'm going to keep digging around though, see what else I can find. Of course there is always the wild card of storage and prep that can cause illness, and I'm sure we can all agree on that one!
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PitMattster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, just found this on a Canucklehead site:

Food Temperature
Beef, veal and lamb (pieces and whole cuts) - medium-rare 63C (145F)
Beef, veal and lamb (pieces and whole cuts) - medium 71C (160F)
Beef, veal and lamb (pieces and whole cuts) - well done 77C (170F
Pork (pieces and whole cuts) 71C (160F)
Poultry (e.g. chicken, turkey, duck) - pieces 74C (165F)
Poultry - whole 85C (185F)
Ground meat and meat mixtures (e.g. burgers, sausages, meatballs, meatloaf, casseroles) - beef, veal, lamb and pork 71C (160F)
Ground meat and meat mixtures - poultry 74C (165F)
Egg dishes 74C (165F)
Others (hot dogs, stuffing and leftovers)

So therefore logic would dictate that med-rare is okay for ground beef. Interesting! I also found from another site that the only major food borne bacteria that will survive past 122f is listeria, which apparently is not found in meat - unless there is cross contamination. Refer to previous statement on storage and prep. That nasty little bastard will apparently survive up to 15 seconds at 161f, but again not a common meat contaminant.

Just as point, I'd been watching a bunch of Triple D and some if the burgers that I saw certainly did not appear to hit that medium rare mark - hence the question.

No problem admitting if I'm wrong, although in this case I think I've just been mislead. Much in the same way I used to do poultry to 185 in the breast, now I do 165-170 with the twist test on the leg. Of course the day I stop learning or think that I know it all will likely be the day I pack it in.
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a thin burger it will get to 165 but will brown the meat all the way though, (pretty standard internal HD approved cooked temperature), a thicker burger can reach 165 and still not take on the cooked color, (colour), so is it the fact that the burgers on Tripple D, (and other shows), are pink in the middle that makes you think they are not cooked properly?

I added the parenthesis with additional explanations for our Canadian, British, Australian and other none American English speakers. Rolling Eyes Laughing Razz
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whitey
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ground beef needs to have the SH!T cooked out of it.. Shocked
Now a nice pile of home ground sirloin eat it still moo'ing..
Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As my educational background is in the biological sciences, I felt the need to mention that the harmful bacteria found in meat isn't necessarily the problem. It's their byproducts (waste) that are toxic to our systems. It's why you can cook spoiled meat to a well-done temp (thereby killing the bacteria), and still get a very bad case of food poisoning. The problem with undercooking ground beef (that may have had a high concentration of surface bacteria prior to grinding) is that the digestive process does not kill the bacteria. So they just keep on multiplying and producing toxins inside of your digestive tract.

In college, I worked in a bateriology lab where they were researching E. Coli H7:157 (the bad stuff that in some cases can cause kidney failure). They loved their burgers and every last one of them would deal with cases of that E. Coli all day long, while taking a break to eat a rare burger for lunch.

If you are young and healthy, your body will be able to handle the toxins the bateria produce much more efficiently than those individuals who are young/sick/elderly. So the goal here is to find and use meat that has been properly handled--especially if you are going to grind it. I've always eaten hamburgers that have been well-done, but have recently started eating Kobe beef burgers rare. I must agree, they are definitely jucier and tastier.


Last edited by smokin'gal on Sun Jan 23 11 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that part of the reason for the ground beef scare was that some places will use the bits that are close to the spinal column which is where the mad-cow disease lives, and since that can get mixed in to the middle through grinding, we now need to cook burger to 160.

Didn't this just come about after mad-cow scare???

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm about 98% sure that mad-cow is found in the brain and other organ meat. The spine has nothing to do with it.

And thanks for the info smokingal, I never argue with pure science.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat797 wrote:
I thought that part of the reason for the ground beef scare was that some places will use the bits that are close to the spinal column which is where the mad-cow disease lives, and since that can get mixed in to the middle through grinding, we now need to cook burger to 160.

Didn't this just come about after mad-cow scare???

Correct me if I'm wrong.


The ground beef scare was a direct result of the E. Coli H7:157 outbreaks that occurred in the mid 90's. Mad cow disease has not been prevalent in the US (as we don't feed cows animal by-products-which might contain matter from infected animals), but I believe that concern over the disease caused restrictions on where we import our beef.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I cook hamburgers well done but steaks medium rare. I am 55 years old and not had a problem eating medium rare steaks. My opinion is that the center of a steak has not been exposed to the air and the outside edge gets cooked more than the inside so harmful bacteria should be killed. Hamburger meat is different. The interior has been exposed to the air and is more likely to have contamination.

George
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steak Tartare anyone?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23 11 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canadian Bacon wrote:
Steak Tartare anyone?


Wheres the raw egg for the extra dose of salmonella? Shocked
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