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Hot and spicy into the winter.....
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Alien BBQ
BBQ All Star


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 5426
Location: Roswell, New Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08 11 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very deep Tony Very Happy

I will be the first to say that I make quite a few mistakes and I am sure that a few of you in the past have pointed them out to me. Embarassed

I would rather someone not take me at my word and do the research than just blindly accept it as the gospel. I remember one such occasion that I had posted some photos from PitMaster University with aluminum foil covered sticks poking out of the meat. The reader assumed that this was the way to cook the meat and defended the process because I had done it. Later when I read the post, I had to tell them that the sticks had the students names on them so we could identify who's meat was who's and the aluminum foil was put on the sticks to keep the smoke from obscuring the name after hours of being in the pit. Laughing

Anyway, I am not an expert at quite a few things but I do only try to help you all by pointing out things I have studied, taught, or learned because I did the wrong thing in the past. There is a wealth of knowledge here on the ring and my input is miniscule when compared to others. ChefMikey has over 25 years of experience and I am sure he is a professional. All I am trying to do is explain why I said what I said and why I believe it.

and Tony... like Lee Atwater said; Perception is Reality Shocked
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Chefmikey
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 61
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08 11 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alien,
Firstly I just want to say that I'm not here to kick sand on your shoes - you obviously have a great deal of training and experience in food safety - as do I.
My issue was, and still is - the classification of certain items as hazardous when they are not.
You keep coming back to canned foods as being the culprit and I agree - IMPROPERLY canned foods can POSSIBLY become dangerous if C. Botulinum was present in the first place, however, the initial 'warning' you posted did not deal with anything canned, rather a fresh 'salsa'-esque product.

As all scientific evidence states categorically
"Several conditions must be present for the germination and growth of Clostridium botulinum spores. Acid level is a primary factor. Acidity is measured on a pH scale of 0 to 14, with 7 considered neutral, 0 to 7 acidic and 7 to 14 alkaline. A pH near 7 or neutral favors the growth of Clostridium botulinum, while growth is inhibited at a pH of 4.6 or lower. The pH of a food also has an influence on the amount of heat necessary to kill the spores of Clostridium botulinum. The higher the pH (lower the acid level), the greater the amount of heat needed to kill the spores." http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html

The recipe mentioned HAS to have been acidic due to the vinegars stated as being present.

Secondly, you state that "C. botulinum however, is heat resistant and will survive normal cooking processes."
This is a falsehood as seen here:

"Type A toxin is more lethal than types B and E. The toxin is a protein which can be inactivated by heating at 180 degrees F for 10 minutes" (University of Colorado)

or here:

"Foodborne botulism (as distinct from wound botulism and infant botulism) is a severe type of food poisoning caused by the ingestion of foods containing the potent neurotoxin formed during growth of the organism. The toxin is heat labile and can be destroyed if heated at 80C for 10 minutes or longer." (FDA Bad Bug Book: Foodborne Pathogenic Microorganisms and Natural Toxins Handbook).

The SPORES may still be present, but the toxin is rendered dead, and the spores are not the problem...

Fact is, almost every incidence of C. Botulinum intoxication is due to improperly CANNED foods - not homemade 'salsa', and ordinary, everyday actions (washing produce before use, proper storage of fresh fruit and veggies, proper cooling of leftovers and heating any leftover foods to 165 deg. F minimum before eating) effectively renders any 'threat' from C. Botulinum meaningless.

Bottom line - ccok your food, don't leave foods in the "danger zone" (40 deg. F - 140 deg. F) any longer than necessary, chill any leftover food below 40 deg. F within 1 hour of cessation of eating, and finally, re-heat any leftover foods to minimum 165 deg. F for 10 minutes before consuming.

Mind yer P's and Q's and you'll live a long and healthy life! Laughing
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Tony
BBQ Super Pro


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 3484
Location: Rehoboth Beach ,Delaware

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08 11 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alien Wrote:
and Tony... like Lee Atwater said; Perception is Reality Shocked
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As For Perception,
Michael McDonald wrote,"What a Fool Believes,He Sees."

Have a Nice Day. Very Happy

Tony
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Alien BBQ
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 5426
Location: Roswell, New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09 11 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, we'll just agree to disagree on a few minor points. It's all good Smile
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