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Help Chicken & Ribs Quality Issue!!!
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bbqwoman



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Lake of the Ozarks, MO

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08 07 3:09 am    Post subject: Help Chicken & Ribs Quality Issue!!! Reply with quote

I am partnered in a new bbq place, and I have concern over the quality of the chicken and ribs. The ribs dry out at the ends. I was wondering if anyone had some advice on how to store them during the day to keep moisture and taste. Also how long do you keep chicken and ribs? Any help would be apprecited! Thanks
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08 07 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum bbqwoman!

Are you holding them hot or cooling them between cooking and warming?

If I cook ribs for a gig and I am going to serve much later in the day or the day after, I only smoke them for 3 – 3˝ hours, (these are times etc. for spares), instead of the usual 5 – 5 ˝ hours, they are then allowed to cool to below 70° F. I then wrap several racks together in Saran wrap and then in foil, they then go into the fridge till about 2 hours before serving time, and they can be warmed through still wrapped in everything as long as the cooker temp is below 255° F.

What I most often do when re-heating is to take them out of the foil and the saran wrap, and put them into the smoker or oven at 275° F, until they pass the 45° bend test when pick up the first 4” of one end, if they bend to 45° they are done, if they are still a little firm they get another 10 - 20 minutes.

I mostly do chicken right to serving, so I don’t hold chicken all that much.

The few times I have had to hold it, I put it into pans, (till they are FULL), with a little liquid, and then make sure the pans are tightly foiled, it will then keep quite a while, but you do need to think about crisping the skin over a high heat just before serving, as it can make your chicken skins soft.

I haven’t had to hold ribs hot for long, but wrapped in the saran wrap and foil, you can keep them going without problems as long as you don’t heat them to over 255° F. I would keep them like this at 170° F - 180° F for 3 - 4 hours, without any worries.
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bbqwoman



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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Location: Lake of the Ozarks, MO

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08 07 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you, that helps, I think our guy is leaving them in the proofer all day. that is prob the issue. do you keep chicken over 2 days?
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bbqwoman



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Location: Lake of the Ozarks, MO

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08 07 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we do wrap them in both, but I think it is the length of time they are stored is the issue?
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08 07 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are fully cooked then wrapped, they will overcook and dry in the wrap IMO, that is why I under cook and then cook them to finish as needed.

The only gigs I do all need to feed at the same time, so I'm not in the habit of having to stagger the finish times on ribs for customers.

No on the chicken question, if they don't go on the day, they either end up in the home freezer, or the trash, I'd prefer the cost of more chicken to risking 2 day chicken on a customer, if I hadn't watched it like a hawk all of the 2 days, and it sounds like you are busy with other things, so being sure it has been kept safe may be a worry.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know my statements will tweak a few beaks here, but i got to be truthful!

Holding food hot for an unknown amount of sales and length of time you will be holding it is for amateurs!!!

did I read it correctly, 2-day old chicken?? held hot for 2 flippin days?? WOW!!! chicken jerky!!! or if the temp is too low to try and keep it moist you will be growing a very bad science experiment!

do either of you have any formal training or experience in the culinary arts??
at least take a food safety & sanitation course if you have not already done so.

food should be prepared fresh for every customer. (hard to do with Q though)
each customer should get a consistent product that is the same quality at any tme of day, or different days. fresh chicken compared to two-day old is very easy to discern and you will lose business and get a bad reputation that will be impossible to overcome anytime soon.

did you do any research on running a BBQ operatin before attempting to operate one??

Sorry for the harshness, but i hate when people think food-service is easy work and find out the hard way that it is one of the toughest industries!
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know my statements will tweak a few beaks here, but i got to be truthful!

Holding food hot for an unknown amount of sales and length of time you will be holding it is for amateurs!!!

did I read it correctly, 2-day old chicken?? held hot for 2 flippin days?? WOW!!! chicken jerky!!! or if the temp is too low to try and keep it moist you will be growing a very bad science experiment!

do either of you have any formal training or experience in the culinary arts??
at least take a food safety & sanitation course if you have not already done so.

food should be prepared fresh for every customer. (hard to do with Q though)
each customer should get a consistent product that is the same quality at any time of day, or different days. fresh chicken compared to two-day old is very easy to discern and you will lose business and get a bad reputation that will be impossible to overcome anytime soon.

did you do any research on running a BBQ operating before attempting to operate one??

Sorry for the harshness, but i hate when people think food-service is easy work and find out the hard way that it is one of the toughest industries!
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice Dirty Harry- Twice! Wink Laughing
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQMAN wrote:
Good advice Dirty Harry- Twice! Wink Laughing


It might be better advice, to actually answer the question that was asked? Razz

bbqwoman wrote:
Also how long do you keep chicken and ribs? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks



But hey maybe that is just me and what do I know!Rolling Eyes

Harry Nutczak wrote:
I know my statements will tweak a few beaks here, but i got to be truthful!

Holding food hot for an unknown amount of sales and length of time you will be holding it is for amateurs!!!


So you can produce Qued ribs to order without any holding...That's amazing Harry, as a professional could you please explain your method for achieving this? Does this method also work for pulled pork and brisket? The world waits with baited breath for the answer to this question!

Harry Nutczak wrote:
did I read it correctly, 2-day old chicken?? held hot for 2 flippin days?? WOW!!! chicken jerky!!! or if the temp is too low to try and keep it moist you will be growing a very bad science experiment!


Nope, you didn't read it from my posts, though it was implied not stated from bbqwomans' posts.

Harry Nutczak wrote:
do either of you have any formal training or experience in the culinary arts??


I do, and I haven't made anybody ill with my practice of the art in the last 28 years that I know of, but maybe I killed them, so they just never told me.

Harry Nutczak wrote:
food should be prepared fresh for every customer. (hard to do with Q though) each customer should get a consistent product that is the same quality at any tme of day, or different days. fresh chicken compared to two-day old is very easy to discern and you will lose business and get a bad reputation that will be impossible to overcome anytime soon.


I agree, and probably wasn't strong enough with pushing a newbie towards good food practice as I should have been, but I suppose tearing her a new asshole would have been much more productive...NOT!

Re-reading my reply it does make it sound like I am holding chicken hot for the day, (not for two days), I stated clearly that I do chicken fresh for the clients, and only hold for long enough, (I meant long enough to deliver, but did not say it in full that way), so I hear were Harry is coming from.

Mea Culpa on not reading bbqwoman the riot act, I hoped she and others would read what I was trying to say, as well as trying not to say, with some diplomacy, well diplamacy be damned from here on in, I think I like Harry Nutszaks style instead, I think we should all adopt it! Crying or Very sad
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, true SoEzzy! Very Happy

Dirty Harry may have been a bit over the top, I must admit! Embarassed

Probably the two day old chicken set him off maybe?

Obviously, it is impossible to serve ribs and/or chicken "fresh' off the grill/smoker. I think what was implied is that after the day of cooking, it is not "fresh" anymore, and I agree.

When I cater events, the host has implicit directions to dispose of any left-overs properly- I dont, and wont, take resposiblity for folks getting sick due to thier negligence/ignorance.

That being said, I also bring enough food to the fresh market that I can comfortably sell that day. Any leftovers can go to friends and family- that day. Otherwise, I do not sell cooked food two days later, refridgerated or not.

That being said, the food safety course that Harry mentioned covers these "basics" THE FIRST DAY, because proper food handling and sanitation is the most importatnt factor in keeping the public safe from food borne illness. I believe his "overzealous" style came from this point of view, but I could be wrong! Wink
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbqwoman wrote:
thank you, that helps, I think our guy is leaving them in the proofer all day. that is prob the issue. do you keep chicken over 2 days?


Bad news, anyway you slice it! Wink Very Happy
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBQMAN wrote:
bbqwoman wrote:
thank you, that helps, I think our guy is leaving them in the proofer all day. that is prob the issue. do you keep chicken over 2 days?


Bad news, anyway you slice it! Wink Very Happy


I agree with you on the bad news, to me when I read the, "do you keep chicken over two days"? As more of a rhetorical question!

I have taken two Food safety and sanitition courses, and a food handlers course and would recommend them to literally everyone, there was a lot to learn and a load of good advice and information available for free.
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19 07 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoEzzy,
None of my proper food handling tirade was directed towards you.

I will explain later by adding an edit to this post, I am heading out the door right now.
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Nutczak wrote:
SoEzzy,
None of my proper food handling tirade was directed towards you.

I will explain later by adding an edit to this post, I am heading out the door right now.


Thanks for the short explanation, it was probably the reference to "either".

Harry Nutczak wrote:

do either of you have any formal training or experience in the culinary arts??


That made me bite a little harder than I might have.

I look forward to the long version later. Wink
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoEzzy, read the very first sentence of the very first post at the top of this thread.
it states that she had partnered with a person owning a BBQ restaurant.
That is where my "have either of you taken a food handling/sanitation class" comment was for.

I am right in line with your method's SoEzzy. but what she has going on is an unknown amount of people ordering from a menu with no clue on how many people will visit, or at what time of day they will visit, and how much they will order. their is no way the product could be consistent. 2-day old chicken compared to freshly cooked is huge!

My biggest concern & complaint is consistency. I do not care if the food is total crap, but it should be total crap at every visit no matter what time of day. not great sometimes and crap other times. which is exactly what happens when food is held hot for unknown service amounts and at varying times.

serve a product that is repeatable so you can gain a following that gets what they are expecting. not great one day at a certain time, but dried out garbage later in the day (or two days) from sitting hot for hours on end. or worse yet, at a temperature that is prime breeding grounds for bacteria.

now the issue with chicken held hot since 11:00 AM and served at 9:00 PM and re-heated and served a second time around after being held hot for another 8-10 hours. how good is that going to be??
lets say you come in at 11:00 AM and you happen to get great chicken because it was just cooked, you then bring the family at dinner time at 5:00'ish PM, and are served this same batch of chicken that was made at 11:00 AM and held hot, how good is that going to be??

I hate working with chicken, I refuse to cook it ahead of time for an unknown amount of customers that may or may not order it. and it is a pain to try and get good bird done in the normally accepted 20 minute service time from a raw state. and at the same time you maybe got 3-days shelf life in the cooler when raw before it gets funky.

When I do large parties that order chicken, (usually cheap weddings) I limit my hold time to 1/2 hour. if the dinner seating gets delayed from the wedding guests screwing around, I instruct my servers to start serving if the guests are seated or not. they set a time to eat and that is when the food is served. No negotiations allowed. When my chicken hits the customers table, it is tender & juicy. You take a bite of of my bird the juices will run down your arm, down your side, and into your shoe! I will not let my food get trashed from sitting in an alto-shaam too long because the party is too busy drinking. I put it out at it's best, if it gets cold sitting at the table it is not my fault. we have a contract that states the serving time. and that is when it gets served.

If I was absolutely forced to serve chicken on a menu with an unknown amount of servings being sold daily. my route would be to take it about 10-15 degrees under done,(it will continue to cook after being removed from the heat source) cool it as fast as I possibly could, wrap it tightly in an airtight medium after it has cooled fully, and keep it cold until it was ordered then heat it as fast & hot as I could without burning it until it hits 170 degrees internally.

Ribs,
I cook them until the lighter side of almost being done, cool as fast as possible, airtight wrap and hold refrigerated until the customer orders and finish them on a char-grill or a very hot oven. I also have my kitchen lackeys peel the membrane. the person that pissed me off the most that week gets that job.

Did that clear things up a little???
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Alien BBQ
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I ate some of those over-held ribs at the Rib Crib. When they brought me the ribs and I bit into them, the bone disintegrated and filled my mouth with grilse. Boy , was that tasty! I sent them back and the manager brought out my next stack. You guessed it! The same thing. When I told him, his remark was they have been cooked for 5 hours! Yea, but on what day was my response. He could not understand that BONES are not suppose to fall apart in your mouth.
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning guys and gals! Very Happy

Hope you are still with us bbqwoman! Shocked Very Happy

The idea here is to openly share information for the greater benefit of all. Hopefully, you have taken this all in (perhaps with a grain of salt here and there) and not run out on us! Very Happy

You may not like the advice (or the delivery) but most of us here are straight shooters and will give you the information you asked for. This is a touchy subject, and your questions of course opened up a can of worms you might not have been expecting.

The bottom line is that we are hoping to get you where you need to be with your food quality issues! Very Happy
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SoEzzy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification Harry, I did re-re-re-read the posts and had put that line as the "other" tentative cause of the either.

I'm sorry, I tried to bite and to pull the meat off your ribs, but you have a mighty tough hide there Harry.

Strangely I know, I would come and pull membranes for you any day...there is something in the destructive / creative urge about de-membraning ribs that I actually enjoy.

OK, I have only had to do 36 racks at most on a single day, so doing more, may be a chore I won't enjoy, but once going I get into a flow and rock and roll, it is only the really tough ones, (in a contradiction of terms, that aren't really so tough and), that break apart, slow me down. Wink
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Last edited by SoEzzy on Tue Mar 20 07 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Harry Nutczak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20 07 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya gotta have a tough hyde to be in the foodservice industry.

it is the toughest job out there IMO.

what other job is so "time-pressured" we got very short shelf lives of both raw & cooked products! our inventory is constantly changing it's needs day to day. and we are limited to what we can fit in our coolers.


and then we never know how many we will serve every day!
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BBQMAN
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21 07 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What type of restaraunt work do you do Harry- I don't recall............
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